EV Naysayer Arguments

Mark D Larsen
August 2021

The other day I decided to post a message on our local “Nextdoor” forum to ask my neighbors about their reasons for continuing to buy and drive gas cars instead of transitioning to electric vehicles. Never in my wildest imagination did I anticipate all the responses my query would elicit, let alone how many objections they raised! The vast majority of their arguments echoed the petrolganda that the fossil fools continue to spread far and wide through the media. Below are a selection of some of those replies, with names removed to protect the not-so-innocent. I’m sure other EV advocates encounter these very same arguments from naysayers, and already know how best to respond.



Neighbors' choice of cars

Hi, neighbors:

I have a question, if anyone is willing to respond. If you purchased a gas car during the past few years, might I ask why you didn’t consider an electric vehicle instead? I’m simply curious to learn the reasons why in this country we are not keeping up with Europeans, especially in nations like Norway. I would appreciate any replies! Cheers!

norway_vs_usa


'Keeping up with the Europeans' may well be an oxymoron for some of us. Other than a few good beers and some high end wrist watches, what exactly have they produced that would make one envious?

I understand when people feel patriotic and loyal to their homeland. To be fair, however, many of our allies now outrank the USA in practically every category of prosperity. That's pretty admirable, IMHO. https://www.prosperity.com/rankings

I've purchased three gas vehicles in the past 5 years. I don't believe electric vehicles solve anything. They come with their own issues that are also horrible for the environment.

Okay! I'm interested in what EV issues you're referring to, and where you learned about them. Tell you what: if you're referring to emissions, try this online tool with your current car. I'd be curious to know the results: http://bit.ly/ice_ev_ghg

ugh. It appears that the NICE ev's are so expensive. I suppose that is why there are not more of them purchased.

Yes, the top-of-the-line EVs from Jaguar, Porsche, Mercedes, Audi are up there with their gas model prices, no question. Many EVs aren't any more expensive than an average new car in the USA, however. And an important consideration is the overall lifetime cost, since it is much cheaper and convenient to fuel them. For example, I've saved ~$15,000 by not paying for gasoline in the last 9 years. That helps a lot.

Range anxiety!! when I have driven with my EV friends they are frantic to find the next charging area and fear large lines just to get to plugged into a charger station. Then we get to twiddle our thumbs for 45 minutes. If you go into the mountains for a vacation, I have seen Tesla’s lined up 10 deep waiting for a charging station. Great for around town, but not if you want to get away from it all IMHO.

Interesting! What EV do your friends drive? On roadtrips, we've never experienced range anxiety, but… then again, we typically only drive for 3 hours or 200 miles before we need to empty our "tanks." Heh. I've never had to wait, and never had to charge for longer than it takes to visit the restroom and wash the kamikaze bugs off the windshield. Do you remember at which Supercharger site you saw so many Teslas in line? That's weird. I'll avoid that location, if such is the case.

Combustible fuels are quite simply more energy dense than electricity. Batteries are nearing their limits of theoretical energy storage and even if they achieved 100% of that, they still couldn’t hold a candle to fuel. I’m open to other fuels other than petroleum products like E100 but internal combustion ftw.

Yes, liquid fuels are more energy dense, that's true. On the other hand, EVs are much more energy efficient. Waste not, want not. My EV gets the equivalent of 141 MPGe, which is why it has a range equivalent to most gas cars. I don't know of any internal combustion vehicle that is rated that high.

We considered an electric car but we need the range to get all the way to SLC on one charge. Affordable Electrics arent there yet

Y'know, our previous gas car couldn't make it to SLC without stopping to fill up en route, and our Model 3 actually has a longer range. To be honest, I don't know if it could make it to SLC on one charge, as my bladder couldn't last that long the many times we've driven there! Hahaha!

I think I will wait till the fire dept. has the technology to extinguish a EV automobile fire. All they can do now is let your car and maybe your house or apartment building burn. No way to put out a EV battery fire. Then there is the rolling power outages just trying to air condition our homes and business. The time will come for EV but rushing into it will cause country wide problems.

Oh… that's just not true. Of course they can put out EV fires —which are very few and far between compared to gas car fires. They just pour lots of water on them. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36189237/tesla-model-s-fire-texas-crash-details-fire-chief/ As for "rolling power outages," my Tesla Powerwall battery helps in those instances, but even so, let's please remember: gas pumps don't work in a blackout either.

you implied Europeans are smarter. You are welcome for the us subsidies (that tax payers paid for)

Oh… my. I never implied any such thing, just pointed out the higher rates of EV adoption on their side of the pond. Surely you are not "implying" that Europeans are "dumber" for doing so, right? Or are you? As for subsidies from tax dollars, they have them in European countries, too. And please remember that in the USA we subsidize gasoline much more than we incentivize EVs.

subsidies

What about the 2nd Volt recall due to the recent round of fires. 70,000 vehicles. Maybe the owners are setting them on fire to collect Ins. !!! Resale Value? Rolling power outages are caused by demand exceeding supply of electric power grid. Look at the big picture.

I think you mean the Bolt recall. Yes, they had 8 fires out of 99,657 cars sold. That's negligible compared to gas car fires. As for EVs and the grid, I really think you should watch the video I've recommended. It answers your fear at this point: https://youtu.be/VyZOLMeMYnI?t=449

Our last vehicle purchase was a Honda Passport. We often have to pull a trailer a longer distance. Gas is our best option.

If you're often towing a trailer, it's true that there aren't (yet) many EVs that have the capability. My Model 3's hitch, for example, is only rated at a measly 2,000 lbs., the Model Y 3,500, and the Model X 5,000. When they're released later this year, however, a Ford F-150 Lightning will tow 10,000, a Rivian 11,000, and the top-of-the-line Cybertruck 14,000.

13_lg

I decided against a eCar because:

- electricity doesn’t grow on trees

- the lithium production is devastating

and the situation in Europe with where electricity is coming from is even worse, since we do not have the excessive amount of solar and wind energy… eCars can not be the future; hydrogen must become it…

You're absolutely right that electricity doesn't grow on trees. Of course, neither does gasoline. I'm very fortunate that my electricity comes from my rooftop, but I know many people aren't in a position to install solar panels. As for lithium production, I'm curious where you're getting your information. Is it really more "devastating" than drilling, extracting, transporting, refining fossil fuels? https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lithium-mine-oil-sands/ As for hydrogen, my understanding is that it is too energy wasteful, even when extracted with electrolysis using renewable energy sources. Waste not, want not, I say.

fcv_vs_ev_efficiency

It's simple. Electric cars have to nest. ie, return home daily to be recharged. You cant take a road trip in one. Therefor you must then have two cars. People in Europe tend to live close to where they work. Take public transportation. And don't travel much do to the high taxes on fuel. I'll take the USA way.

I'm really confused by your statement. "You can't take a road trip in one"…? I'm not sure where you've heard that. My wife and I have taken multiple roadtrips in our EV. We have visited her folks in the Sacramento area 8 times. We've also taken roadtrips to Colorado 3 times, to northern Utah 3 times, and gone camping to Mt. Charleston, Valley of Fire, and Kodachrome Basin towing our minimalist camp trailer. I’ve even driven cross-country and back. No problem! In fact, all those journeys have been more enjoyable than when we used to drive those routes in our previous gas car. I suggest you let me give you a "Ride & Drive" in our EV so that you can experience what they're really like. Happy to oblige. Just let me know!

Screenshot

In Europe, since you mentioned it and also on the East Coast, Solar is not available as it is here in the desert…

The biggest environmental danger posed by lithium mining is the amount of water the process uses up: an estimated 500,000 gallons of water per ton of lithium extracted….

This can endanger the communities where the lithium is being mined because it can cause droughts or famine if operations are not kept in check….

And since it happens in 3rd world countries, its often a problem…

And a second problem is Child labor.

All sounds very attempting: green energy for saving the planet…. But as soon as you dig deeper, there are the same problems as with any energy source…

Yes, there are always problems with any energy source. And it's true that we have more solar here than in other parts of the world, but it is still a viable, free, clean source of energy. Indeed, I have many friends on the East Coast and in Canada who also drive on sunshine. And in Europe their solar is supplemented by impressive wind, geothermal, and tidal generation. As for water use, I believe that fracking is just as, if not more, "thirsty." I will agree that child labor to extract cobalt in the Congo is deplorable, but at least there are some steps being taken to mitigate that problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WOOZYlLyXI By the way, you are aware that cobolt is also used in refining oil, right? Well… given your responses, I can conclude that you are committed to keep burning fossil fuels rather than transition to an EV. Okay. You've answered my question. Thanks for replying!

Mark, are you implying the euros are smarter than we are? In reality their needs are far different than ours. Most countries over there are the size of small states. So here are some of the reasons. I don’t want to stop in baker for 45 minutes to charge my car on the way to CA. I have a trailer that I pull. I don’t have a need to virtue signal my wokeness. Also, my guess is without government subsidies you wouldn’t be driving one either. So you’re welcome, I paid for part of your car!

Oh, never implied any such thing, just pointing out the comparative stats. Oddly enough, the many times we've stopped in Baker on our way to California, we've recharged our EV in the same amount of time needed to visit the restrooms and clean the bugs off the windshield —about 20 minutes. Of course, our Model 3 can only tow up to 2,000 lbs., and probably wouldn't suffice for your needs. I do think that a Model X, a Rivian, a Ford F-150 Lighting, a Hummer EV, or a Cybertruck might work for you, however. Now, why the snark about my "wokeness"? You really don't understand my motives at all: I don't give an at's rass about "virtue signalling." As for subsidies… you're welcome: I have paid for part of your gasoline. And yes, I would opt for an EV even without the tax incentive: they're much better cars. I can only conclude that you have never even taken one for a nice, long test drive. You should!

Last year for another gas burner. First issue is range. Driving to see kids in Oregon or New Mexico not really viable with the current ranges. Second is the electric generation. Don't have solar so that would add another 20k or so to the price of the car. Our current infrastructure cannot handle everyone going to EV's (see California where the recommendation is to not charge your car at night). Until we solve the supply issue EVs are not viable for the majority. Third is end of life. The current battery technology isn't going to keep those batteries for 15 or so years. My second car is just at 15 years old can't see any EV going that long and having decent battery life. It will be very expensive to replace those batteries to keep the car going.

I'm a bit perplexed. While range was an issue with our previous Nissan LEAF, that's no longer the case with our Model 3. We've taken numerous roadtrips in it to California, Colorado, northern Utah, North Carolina, Alabama, Texas, camping trips, etc. —a total of 28,042 miles in 4.5 years on long distance trips. I would be interested in seeing a source for that policy in California. It strikes me as very odd, since most utilities encourage EV drivers to charge overnight, when both demand and rates are the lowest. As for the "fuel" cost for electricity without solar, I'll attach our stats after 10.5 years: you can see that, even if we'd charged from the grid, it would have cost us ~$15K less than paying for gasoline in our previous gas car. Finally, my understanding is that a Tesla's battery can last for at least 300K miles, perhaps more: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-many-miles-will-a-tesla-last/ I don't know how many miles you've put on your 15-year old car, but in our case we drive about 12K per year. *IF* our battery lasts as long as that article projects, that would calculate to… 25 years of ownership! I hope this helps.

evfuel

California issued their electrical alert and asked people not to charge during peak hours. We do not have the infrastructure to charge EV vehicles. Maybe if everyone had solar (which given the supply chain for rare earth and potential for slave labor i'm not purchasing at this time) it might work but in other places if everyone on the street got an EV, there is insufficient power to charge them all. California has rolling blackouts now to deal with heat and overuse. What would happen if the EV load was greater? We aren't building the capacity to handle the load. I'd prefer to save my electric load for my AC as opposed to the EV. Range is still an issue if I want to go fishing. Backcountry roads do not have charging stations. I want 400 or more miles of range to go exploring. For a tiny few, EV makes sense, for the vast majority it does not.

Okay! It's just as I suspected. California is asking EV owners not to charge during PEAK hours, which is typically between 4:00 and 9:00 PM —NOT during the night (when most owners charge their EVs while sleeping, when both demand and costs are low). As for California's ability to handle more EVs, I think the L.A. Times disagrees with you…? https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-10-01/california-electricity-evs Finally, for whatever it's worth, I beg to differ with your conclusion: I think EVs make sense for the *vast majority*. It is only a *tiny few* like yourself who want (and need) 400 miles of range to go exploring, go fishing, drive back country roads, etc. on a regular, frequent basis. Now if most of your miles involve that kind of driving, then no… an EV would NOT work for you, you're right. Nor would my previous gas car that only had the same range as my EV. I also assume you have only one vehicle to take those trips, right?

I think that one of the grand challenges for the younger generation is to solve the electric storage issue. We need something that stores as much power as water behind a dam without building a dam. I have no clue how to do that, but that's why it's a challenge. Without drastic changes in electric storage we will always need on demand, highly available, power sources, and demand is going to go way up. Renewables can't meet the demand today and in no way meet the increased demand with a majority of EVs. Maybe with lots of nuclear power we could do it, but those are likely decades away from being online. Until we solve those problems then you can't have a majority of EVs. The other social issue is the use of rare earth minerals to build those batteries. Much of those minerals come from China and I worry about how they are extracting those minerals. I'd rather not be sending money to China at this time. And if it's not China then it's an African country where you have young miners working. It's not a pretty sight and if we drastically increase demand for those minerals then the pressure to extract will go sky high.

You obviously have many objections to EVs. I'm willing to bet they are the same "top 10 reasons" discussed in this video. You should definitely watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI

I travel five states for business. I don’t have time to wait for my car to charge. It would take me a month to do what I do in two weeks.

Uh… how long do you assume it takes to charge at a Supercharger? I can tell you from experience that it takes no longer than for us to visit the restrooms and clean the suicide bugs off the windshield. Often the car is charged before we're ready to continue the trip. It's no big deal. Honestly!

My wife and I had considered buying an electric car but decided ultimately against it and bought a gasoline product instead this past spring. This was a decision based on the following:

#1: lack of current infrastructure to support traveling with an electric vehicle any significant distance (we plan on traveling cross country on a fairly regular basis). In particular, what options for charging stations are there especially in the Midwest states.

#2: tying into the above….limited range per charge. Although this has improved over the past few years, this is still quite limited especially when traveling across country.

#3: environmental concerns regarding the manufacture of the components/batteries. And, where are most of the batteries made currently…China? What environmental costs are involved during the manufacture of these batteries? My understanding is this is significant when compared to a conventional engine.

#4: finally, the very significant issue of safety as has been pointed out recently in the press….these batteries can and do catch on fire, which presents a very challenging and dangerous situation for our first responders, more so than with conventional vehicle fires.

So, there you have it. These were our reasons. Although I am a firm believer in reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, I don’t think electric vehicles are the answer at this point. Solid state batteries (in the development stage right now as I understand) address some of the issues I mentioned, as well as Hydrogen technology which although is in very early development, would address most of my concerns.

All good questions! I hear a lot of similar concerns quite often. Not to dismiss them entirely, but they often depend upon the particular EV.

#1: I could travel practically anywhere in the USA, coast-to-coast in my EV, as the public charging infrastructure is no longer an issue —and just keeps growing. I'll attach a current map of the Superchargers that we use, and I believe that the Midwest states don't pose any problem. Are there particular cities in those areas that you plan to visit?

#2: Our Model 3 came with a range of 310 miles. New ones are now rated at 353 miles, with even better batteries. That's a lot better than our previous gas car! It is also more than we ever need between Superchargers. We have found on our numerous roadtrips —in our old gas car or our current EV— that we rarely can go more than 3 hours or 200 miles before we need to empty our own "tanks." And the car recharges those miles in about the same time as it takes us to visit the restrooms and clean off the windshield. Of course, there are those who insist on driving more than 300 miles for nearly 5 hours without stopping, but I have a tongue-in-cheek name for such superheroes: "Bladderman." Hahaha!

#3: The batteries in our EV are made in Tesla's Gigafactory near Sparks, NV. Later this year, they will also start producing them in a new Terafactory in Austin, TX. My understanding is that the environmental costs of building them are overblown. It is true, however, that manufacturing EVs produces more emissions that gas cars precisely because of the battery. For example, making a gas car produces an average of 14,000 lbs. of GHG; building our EV produces 23,520 lbs. However, because it has no tailpipe emissions, it saves the additional 9,520 lbs. after driving its initial 15,000 miles.

#4: Yes, it is possible —but actually uncommon— for an EV to catch fire. Tesla reports that there is one fire per 205,000,000 miles driven in its models. For gas cars, it is one fire per 19,000,000 miles —at least 10 times more frequently! https://insideevs.com/news/501729/number-tesla-vehicle-fires-2020/ As for fire responders, I think there is a lot of misinformation out there. The media quickly picked up on that one crash in Texas, but the fire chief contradicted what was reported: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36189237/tesla-model-s-fire-texas-crash-details-fire-chief/

I agree that solid-state batteries might be a major step forward, a real game changer, but we have yet to see them commercialized. As for hydrogen… well… from what I've been able to determine, it is too "energy wasteful," even if extracted using electrolysis from renewable energy. Waste not, want not, I say. Here's a comparison, if interested.

I hope this helps fill in some of the blanks! And please let me know if you'd like a "Ride & Drive" in my EV. I'm always happy to oblige. Just let me know!


fcv_vs_ev_efficiency

I like the concept of electric vehicles, but like others have said, their design is just not quite there for me at this time. I was curious as to why Norway, a major oil exporting country, would have such a share of electric vehicles.

I checked the average cost of gasoline in Norway is currently $7.61 per gallon as of 21 July. https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Norway/gasoline_prices/

Electricity costs in Norway are .094 (kWh, U.S. Dollar) 9.4 cents/kWh. In USA, average is 14.8 cents/kWh. Rocky Mountain Power customers are at 12 cents/kWh according to their website.

Additionally, "all-electric cars and vans in Norway are exempt from all non-recurring vehicle fees, including purchase taxes, and 25% VAT on purchase, making electric car purchase price competitive with conventional cars..." Note that taxes were raised on gas vehicles.

86% of the 5 million population of Norway lives in Urban areas.

Not too hard to see why Norwegian citizens are making electric vehicles work with high gas taxes, low electricity cost, big subsidies, and short urban driving patterns.

Yes, I think you're right: those are all major factors influencing the EV market in Norway. I think we should emulate them, since 82.66% of our population also lives in urban areas.

I bought a Hyundai (gas), I did test drive the Ionic. Then did the math. The break even gas over electric was 7 + years. No thanks.

That's very interesting. I believe that the Ioniq EV does cost nearly $2K more than an Ioniq Hybrid with comparable features, likely because of the battery. I'm assuming you must have test driven them in California or Colorado, which are the nearest states that sell the EV version. Well… enjoy! Maybe eventually the new Ioniq 5 will be more affordable…?

WSJ yesterday, July 26: "Widespread fast charging in the U.S. is a decade-plus off, even using the most enthusiastic forecasts”.

Yes, I will concede that DC Fast Charging has yet to match the Supercharger network, that's true. Only in the last couple of years has it become possible to drive my previous, limited-range Nissan LEAF from SLC to Las Vegas —something that was practically impossible when I bought it 9 years ago. Still, I think the WSJ is being cautiously reluctant to acknowledge how fast widespread charging is rolling out. Here is a map of the current DC Fast Chargers, and there still are, indeed, some gaps in certain areas. I'll also attach a map of the Superchargers, with very few gaps. The good news is, with a CHAdeMO adapter from Tesla, its owners could use BOTH the Superchargers and the DC Fast Chargers! I have been toying with the idea of buying that adapter myself, but in reality… I have yet to run across an instance in which I would need it, because the Supercharger network is so complete and robust.

We're reaching peak lithium and cobalt. According to a Bank of America Global Research report, the global EV battery supply is in danger of running out completely as soon as 2025. “Our updated EV battery supply-demand model suggests the global EV battery supply will likely hit [a] ‘sold-out’ situation between 2025-26.”

Interesting. I wonder if the writer, Thomas Hum, has taken into consideration the battery manufacturing that will come online later this year in Austin, TX, and Berlin…? I might venture to observe that "sold-out" does not mean "non-existent," simply that demand will exceed supply. With every automaker transitioning to electric, I can well imagine how demand will continue to increase.

Too expensive and insufficient long distance capability.

I think you're misinformed. Maybe this can help give a clearer picture…? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI

I have zero “fears” of electric cars. I have fears over zealots. Yes, there was some zeal in your email and also a little of "why don't you do what I and the Norwegians are doing". You also said if we bought gas why didn't we consider electric, well we did consider electric and chose gas. One reason is range as I said and one of the other is that this fact is ignored but from cradle to grave electric cars are not less harmful to the environment. I'd rather pay for some gas than continue to destroy the earth. In a later reply after I said you're welcome for me helping to pay for your car you said you are paying for part of mine. Sorry you may be paying for part of my fuel with oil company subsidies but not my car. I'm paying for both part of your car and fuel. Cheers, good debate!

Well… if you're not too fearful of my "zeal," you might consider these answers to your concerns.

Range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=595s

Environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=367s

I also suggest you use this tool to compare the emissions, cradle to grave, of your gas car and an EV: http://bit.ly/ice_ev_ghg

Let me know your results from manufacturing, upstream, and tailpipe for both vehicles so we can see which type of vehicle is causing more destruction of the earth.

You're paying for the "fuel" I get from my rooftop? As well as my car? I don't think so. I've paid federal, state, sales, property, gasoline taxes my whole life, and I think it is only fair that I could get a small portion of all that money back to help clean up our air and mitigate climate change. That you don't want to get a similar portion of your taxes back in the same manner is, of course, your decision.

I’d consider an EV but just for riding around town. You still need a gasoline vehicle to travel. I read a few articles that said if everyone had an EV it would be a burden on the electrical infrastructure. And while you feel you’re saving the planet by driving an EV, how do you think the electricity you need to power your vehicle is made? I think electric cars should have solar panel material incorporated in the hood, trunk, and roof to make them more self sustaining. They’d probably look more industrial but would be efficient.

I'm sorry, but none of that is true. I suggest you read through all the other comments and responses in this thread which address the issues you raise. I'd be curious to know where you have heard or read them. In the meantime, perhaps you'd like to try this online tool with your gas car to compare emissions. EVs do not eliminate them, but they do help reduce them significantly: http://bit.ly/ice_ev_ghg Let us know your results!

Don’t worry everyone because the politicians are trying to figure out how to get all you Guys avoiding the gasoline tax. Lol

Would you rather pay your road tax at the gas pump per gallon or as an additional flat fee of $120 at registration —like I had to do for my EV?

Does it seem like someone in this thread is an EV/Tesla dealer?

The nearest showroom is in Las Vegas. There are no Tesla "dealers" here, just happy owners.

We need faster and plentiful charging stations.

When I bought my Nissan LEAF years ago, I would have agreed. The public charging stations were very few and far between. We can't really say that anymore. If I still had that LEAF, I could now drive it from SLC to Las Vegas —even though it only had a 100-mile range! And the infrastructure just keeps expanding. You might want to check out PlugShare.com to see if there are chargers where you often drive. This video might also give you a glimpse of where we're at, and where we're going: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=636s

I can see if one lived in a small country like Norway or on an island, the current technology electric vehicle might be a viable option. Although charging stations are springing up across the country, the charge time and battery life are negatives that would make me hesitate to buy an electric car at this time. Also the environmental argument needs to address the associated waste streams with electric cars associated with battery production and disposal plus the increased burden on our existing electricity production infrastructure. In the interim, I opted to buy a hybrid vehicle.

I hope you enjoy your hybrid! It's certainly a step closer to reducing one's carbon footprint. Might I ask if you have only one car? The reason is that I know many owners who have what I'd call a "hybrid" garage, i.e., they have an electric car as a daily commuter for running errands around town, yet also a gas (or hybrid) car for long distance roadtrips.

I understand the concerns you raise about going fully electric, and many neighbors express the same reservations. I do think, however, that a lot of progress has already been made. If you'd like to learn about some of those improvements, here are a few links that might help:

Burden on the grid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=444s

Charging infrastructure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=636s

Charge time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=703s

Battery life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=827s

As for production, it is true that building a battery adds to the initial carbon footprint when manufacturing a car, although after the first year of driving one (say, ~15K miles) it already saves that difference by not having a tailpipe.

Tell you what: try using my online tool to compare the manufacturing, upstream, and tailpipe emissions of your car with an EV. I'll be curious to know your results: http://bit.ly/ice_ev_ghg

Hope this helps!

I was born in Denmark and spent much of my teenage years there. I don't think it is fair to compare Norway or any other European country to the situation here.

- Norway has lots of hydro power. Cheap electricity.

- Countries there are much smaller, you don't drive as far.

- Public transportation is many times better there than here. Not everybody needs a car, there are far fewer of them. Denmark has about 170% sales tax on cars.

- Interestingly, Norway sells a lot of oil to the rest of the world. So don't use as much oil, but they sure like the money they get from it to support their economy.

And let us not forget the environmental cost of producing all those lithium batteries. That is worth a little study!

I appreciate your perspective! Many of the points you raise are legitimate considerations, to be sure. It's true that in many European nations public transportation is so widespread and reliable that few people need to own cars. My wife and I really loved such services when we lived and worked there for several years. Maybe because here our pitiful public transportion pales in comparison makes it even more important for us to transition to EVs away from internal combustion engines…?

Ironically, I get the impression that European countries are, nonetheless, forging ahead with EVs better than in the USA. For example, Denmark is upping its taxes for internal combustion cars, and lowering them for EVs, as part of its goal to have 775,000 plug-ins on the roads by 2030. https://www.electrive.com/2020/12/07/denmark-raises-taxes-for-ices-and-incentives-for-evs/

Finally, I believe there are already studies on producing batteries. Here's one, if you're interested: https://www.transportenvironment.org/publications/batteries-vs-oil-comparison-raw-material-needs

Let the market dictate the outcome. If it’s a good deal smart people won’t need to be sold, it will happen. That’s the beauty of the free market capitalist system.

I agree, as long as we make it a truly free market. Let's level the playing field by getting rid of both oil subsidies and EV tax incentives and we'll see which drivetrain people prefer. Which reminds me, neighbors: I'm more than willing to let you have a "Ride & Drive" in my Model 3 so that you can experience what an electric vehicle is really like. I'm happy to oblige! Just let me know!

Where does the electricity come from (how is it produced)? If everyone went electric the grid can't handle it, at this time, and not very much is being spent to upgrade. Just sayn’

For a sizable percentage of EV owners (like me), their electricity comes from their rooftops. In other cases, your question depends upon their particular utility region. Try this tool with your gas car to compare its emissions with an EV, and report back your results, okay? http://bit.ly/ice_ev_ghg

As a former Tesla owner I recommend a hybrid for longer road trips. Refueling is typically 5 minutes or less. Recharging takes 20-45 minutes. A typical 6 hour trip can easily become 8-10 hours if that is a consideration. It's mind over matter. If you don't mind - it don't matter. Here's an example: St George to Boise. In my Avalon hybrid I stop once for fuel. This is a 9 hour trip even with an extended stop. In a Tesla 3 Long Range - its 11 hours. To be clear - I'm not bashing electric cars. I enjoyed mine. It just depends on how you plan to use it. Trip planning with Tesla relies on exact adherence to speed limits. If you are one of those "5 mph over the limit" types - plan to add more time to your trip. There are times when a leisurely trip is great. But there are also times when I just want to get where I'm going. EVs don't really give you that option currently.

When you stop to refuel a hybrid in "5 minutes or less," do you not also visit the restrooms? get some refreshment? clean your windshield? When my wife and I stop to plug in, our Tesla often finishes charging before we've been able to empty our own "tanks"! Of course, I do not know what kind or year of Tesla you had, or how many miles you typically drive before stopping. We never drive more than 3 hours or 200 miles. Just a couple of weeks ago when we plugged in, the Supercharger started charging at 1,068 mile-per-hour! Now, it is true that earlier Teslas could not charge as fast as ours, and that they had lower energy efficiency and thus needed more of a charge to restore the miles driven and get back on the road again. I assume that might have been the case with the Tesla you owned…? Nonetheless, I will concede that you are correct about travel times: on truly long distance trips, gas and hybrid cars don't take as long as in an EV. And I can certainly understand that this is a higher priority for you —and probably for most drivers, also! I just have a priority for reducing emissions, even if it takes a bit longer to reach my destination.

gas cars don't catch on fire when refilling.

Hahaha! Riiiiight…! https://youtu.be/T6VKxmUPb3g?t=58

I keep seeing this comment that gas pumps don't work when the power is out. And the newer pumps do require electricity. But the newer stations also come with generators to keep the pumps going in case of emergency.

That's really the same way most electric cars are charged. They plug them in and there's a big generator on the other end of the wire. But either way they are running off fossil fuel for the most part, and all you've done is transfer the emissions to elsewhere too.

And there has to be enough fossil fuel capacity to handle the entire load, solar and wind won't do it, because they are unreliable sources and have to be backed up by sufficient generation to meet peak demand, which coincides with end of daylight.

A hybrid perhaps makes more sense than a strictly electric vehicle. Then you can get somewhere even if the battery is discharged.

New stations come with generators? That's convenient. I'm not aware of any around here, but maybe you are. Perhaps at Costco…? Dunno.

I suppose if an EV owner is really concerned about power outages that would last for several days, longer than the daily miles contained in a battery pack, and doesn’t have rooftop solar and Powerwalls, that owner could invest in a small personal generator like a Honda to charge up. That's also a "hybrid" solution, when you think about it —and one that doesn't require a gas station to have a backup generator.

'Tis true that solar and wind are intermittent, and thus for the grid to transition entirely to renewables would require additional, complementary sources like hydro and geothermal, as well as energy storage like Powerpack batteries, pumped hydro, nanocoated salts, and (one of my favorites) gravity storage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh1--ftWWvY I expect we'll also see more of these solutions in the future.

I’m still driving a 2007 Toyota with over 150,000 miles on it. I’m hoping to get an EV when I’m ready for a new car. Suggestions? My friend loves his Tesla.

Again, I'm more than happy to give neighbors a "Ride&Drive" in my Tesla so they can experience what they're like. I do it all the time. Just let me know!

We have a plug in hybrid which we really like. Our other vehicles are fossil fuel driven. We like long distance car trips, and do not like range anxiety.

I'm glad you like your plug-in hybrid! It's a step in the right direction to mitigate the climate crisis. Which one do you own? A Volt? A Prius Prime? Lots of folks enjoy long distance roadtrips, but are wary of range anxiety. When I owned my LEAF with a 100-mile range, that was, indeed, more of an issue. (Ironically, it is actually possible to drive a LEAF from SLC to Vegas now, thanks to all the new DC Fast Chargers along I-15. I wish they existed when I had my LEAF!) Now we drive a Model 3 with a 300-mile range, and anxiety is a moot point. We've driven to the Sacramento area 8 times, northern Utah 3 times, Telluride 3 times, and numerous tourist trips to Lake Tahoe, Zion, Bryce, Kodachrome Basin, Boulder, Arches, Canyonlands, Dead Horse Point, Colorado Nat'l Monument, Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Grand Canyon, Valley of Fire, Mt. Charleston. I’ve even driven 6,417 miles on a cross-country roadtrip with NO problems! The best news is: it's the best car we've ever owned. Maintenance is minimal, since it has no oil, filters, belts, spark plugs, muffler, transmission. And it's so powerful, nimble, comfortable, quiet, and… fun! I'm happy to give you a "Ride&Drive" so you can experience what it's like, for when and if you go shopping for your next vehicle in the future.

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Their tax rate is 65%! Where do all the batteries go when used or cars damaged? I would say USS with distance would be my concern but hybrid is a good option. Souls always diversify.

Are you saying the Norwegians tax rate is 65%? I think you're mistaken. Their personal income tax rate is 38.2% —compared to 37% in the USA: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate Even still, what I don't understand is why having a *higher* tax rate explains why the vast majority of new cars in Norway are EVs…? I'd think it would be the opposite, wouldn't you? As for EV batteries, when their capacity drops to less than 70%, they're typically installed into energy storage banks by electric utilities to help balance the grid during brownouts and blackouts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI&t=827s And when they've lost all capacity, they're recycled in dedicated facilities like Redwood Materials: https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/services Finally, when it comes to distance, there are now EVs with the same range as gas cars. Mine has a range of 300 miles, but in truth, when we've driven it on numerous road trips, we rarely drive more than 3 hours or 200 miles before we need a bathroom break, and by the time we've visited the rest rooms, the car has finished charging after about 20 minutes. I'm happy to give you a "Ride&Drive" in it so you can experience what EVs are really like first-hand. They're better cars! Honestly! Hope this helps!

My final response: For those interested, Tesla released its "2020 Impact Report." https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

I would encourage clicking the link on that page to download the entire .pdf document, as it addresses many of the concerns expressed in this thread about EVs:

Worth a read!